I must admit to being ignorant of pretty much all the facts except that lots of jobs are resting on this. I hope some wiser people than me can figure it out!

BookLady Alison

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it seems to be the crux of a lot of the arguments I'm hearing against the Bailout. and it's just not factual stuff.

And I feel the same way Alison. Save the jobs!

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain

Folks, my lovely mid-sized Toyota Prius is getting 49-52 mpg in the city and more on the road up to 62 mpg.  When will Detroit match that in a mid-sized car?

Black Phoebe :: Ms. Jen

From the Freep article above: (non hybrid)

All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.

and as for the Hybrids:

Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain

What actually pisses me off - as someone who has worked in both banking and auto - is that we are rewarding criminal banking behavior and punishing an industry trying to do the right thing.

 BTW: Foreign automakers get a pass on a lot of regulations Detroit MUST follow.  Congress has been meddling in a BAD way for 30 some-odd years and, as far as I'm concerned OWES the auto industry a low-interest bridge loan.  It is the only industry that has ever actually paid the money back (think Chrysler.)

MLO / Melissanb

Answer car companies (GM--that IS factual) + govt + oil industry + Calif Air Resources Board...ugh, don't get me started. Why now with the US hybrids when Toyota/Honda et al stepped up the game years ago? I am no economist but I am against the auto bailout just as I was against the bank bailout. Yes people's jobs will be affected and my heart goes out to them. No one wants that, but everyone in the auto industry had to know this was coming. (I think back to "Roger & Me," the writing was on the wall even then.)

People lost their jobs, pensions, homes, etc. with the bank failures, too. Our entire country is in the midst of an economic crisis. Every industry is affected.

I'd love to see those auto workers retained and retrained to build greener, cleaner cars. Why can't we do with the auto industry what Kennedy did with the space program and fast track it so we can have more fuel efficient cars, more hybrids, more plug-in hybrids?

If we give the auto industry a bailout what happens when they don't change their tune? What happens when they *really* fail? I don't pretend to understand all the issues at play and I definitely don't know all the answers. I don't think it as simple as going by what is myth and what is fact, and then acting, so in that regard, I guess I AM as smart as a US senator.

Stefania Pomponi Butler

The Wall Street Journal has a terrific article by Holman W. Jenkins this morning that nails the problem of a bailout. Politics versus business management.

Peloisi, Reed and Obama insist any bailout meet political goals: UAW jobs preservation and "green" cars. 

Detroit should focus on building products that are competitive in the marketplace. It should be able to manage costs, including human resources costs. Period. Coupling a bailout with a political agenda, however well meaning, is going to be disastrous. As Jenkins writes: "Prepare to witness, then, the awesome capacity of an unreformed detroit to consume taxpayer billions with nothing to show for it."

This is why so many of us, despite the obvious human issues discussed above, are uneasy about a bailout.

instead of taking this bridge loan, it's my understanding the gov would be required to take on 50b in pension liabilities.

Not to mention offer zero protection for anyone even slightly related to the auto industry. The plastic suppliers, the parts suppliers, the small businesses, the ANYONE ....in a bankruptcy they get screwed.

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain

I don't think those who bail-out ( taxpayers who have also lost parts of their retirement) should bail-out the legacy healthcare and pension plans off others, bailing out the industry on some level I can understand,  and though the union has made many concessions over the last few years there will have to be more.

These industries are going to have to try harder, yes they are going to have to go green and that is because that is where the money will be in the future and it's time they figure it out, and they will have to start producing better quality cars for less money.

Workers on some level have to take responsibility for their own lives and realize times have changed, jobs are no longer lifetime jobs and they sometimes need to move on

Don't mind saving the workers on some level either but if we are saving them only for them to go back to work for an unproductive company which continues to make stuff nobody wants it's a bad idea.

I find it so strange that liberals are using the whole "environmental" angle to attack the proposed bridge loans and right wingers are flinging about "free market" accusations to condemn the loans. strange bedfellows.

I'm not sure a couple of thought-provoking but inevitably biased pieces of propoganda (roger & me, who killed the electric car) should be used to seal the fate of an extremely complicated and important American industry. these companies have made a lot of mistakes, but unlike the convestional wisdom I don't think it has anything to do with fuel efficiency or union contracts. as someone pointed out, GM has diligently been completing work on the 100+ mpg Volt that will actually never require a drop of gas for anyone who commutes under 40 miles per day. I think that says a lot more about this company than a 25-year-old documentary by Michael Moore. Honda and Toyota make SUVs. The Big Three makes hybrids. 

 While I agree these American companies have made a lot of bad decisions, they have made one good one: as I point out in my post linked above, they have continued to manufacture their products here in the United States. They have a 100 year history of doing so. they helped build the American middle class. for more than half a century they have provided union wages to American workers and provided health care benefits to those American workers and their families. They have invested in American communities. 

You can drive something other than one of the Big 3's products and still have the compassion to hope these companies won't fail. And I surely hope you can live outside Detroit and not be callous and shortsighted about the future of manufacturing in this country.  

Let big labor sleep in the bed it made. There are auto workers who can get paid $30 an hour for sitting in a room playing rubics cube, literally, thanks to union bargaining.

U.S. Auto was in big trouble before the economy went to hell.

 When we spend our money propping up failing industry, we're wasting money that could go into innovation and new industry.

 Our tax-payer dollars shouldn't reward failure.

The CEOs/Execs of these companies are rarely auto industry insiders. they are typically b-school hotshots brought in from other corporations to solve problems and earn multi-million dollar bonuses for increasing the companies' share values or floating away on their golden parachutes if they don't. these men don't live in detroit and they don't care about detroit or the workers at these companies. they do care about their own reputations in the business world. waggoner, GM's CEO has personally donated shitloads to the republicans and now look at what they are doing for him. nothing. I do enjoy the irony of that.

I'm in no mood for finger-wagging right now. if you're going to attack the poor decisionmaking of these men and women who represent the leadership of the industry but don't necessarily represent the interests of the people building the cars we drive I would at least ask that you acknowledge the huge historical and cultural role these companies have played in the United States, as I've already said, building the middle class in this country, building a culture of promise and mobility and building some pretty fucking beautiful automobiles over the years. they have taken care of their workers and their families. you don't have to drive an American car to appreciate this rich history. congratulations, yuppies and free-market nutjobs, now you can dance on the graves of the Big Three and their stinky union-made gas-guzzlers! huzzah! I hope you're still this happy when the fallout hits. 

::threadjack::

Um... NO WAY!  Do you guys even realize that most electricity in the USA comes from COAL and NATURAL GAS?  I am sickened whenever I hear about how "environmentally friendly" electrical cars are.  No, they are not.  I am so sick of hearing people who know nothing about how energy actually works go on and on about how cars are evil.  Please see http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/epm_sum.html to learn more about the realities of energy usage.  Cars are a very small portion of both energy consumption and pollution.

:: end threadjack ::

The fact is that, at this point, without the BRIDGE LOAN, the only people who will be out of luck are GM and Ford domestic divisions, partners, and suppliers.  Not to mention all of the bartenders, cosmetologists, store clerks, construction workers, dry cleaners, etc. who will be driven out of business because no one will be left who can afford to buy their products or services.  

Oh, and make no mistake, the Japanese will help their keiretsu's interests while Washington will leave our companies to twist and turn - just like putting healthcare on the corporate interests instead of recognizing it as a Common Good and allowing an even competitive field.  But, the responses here - and at other sites I frequent - have confirmed for me how nasty Americans have become under 30 years of the Greed is Good religion of Reagan.  Nothing good came from that man.  The fall of the Soviet Union lead to 9/11 if you actually understand anything about sociopolitics, you know that, but I digress.

Socialism is evil.  (Unless it is for the oligarchs in banking.)

Greed is Good.

That is what this boils down to. Americans have decided to reward oligarchs instead of helping the common man.  The worship of wealth in this country has become disgusting.  The bankers are criminals.  The automakers are not - with a few exceptions.

Yes, there are issues with GM, Chrysler and Ford having non-auto guys in high places.  The company I trust most to do right is Ford.  Ford, no matter what others are in position, is run by the Ford family as they have the only votes that count.  Ford has a long history of doing right by its employees when it could.  (The old man was a racist idiot in some ways, and a busybody, but he believed he owed his employees loyalty, and some of that exists to this day.)

So, to all of you who have decided to vent your hate on the auto industry, you are just misguided by oligarchs who are winning the class war.

MLO / Melissa

Yes, I'm in agreement with Kady in our article that you linked to and believe (as she and Joanne Bamberger do) that Congress needs to restructure bankruptcy and the automakers need to take that option.

But in fairness, I was 1000% against the bank bailouts, too, and look where that is now (proving, I believe, my opposition was very well-founded).

I worry for the workers---believe me.

But bailing out is not the answer.

For the record, neither are electric cars. Frankly, green building can achieve a lot more than any additional efforts on cars. That said, there does need to be improvement in miles per gallon and fuel source, among other things. We spent many years focusing on safety improvements, then gadgets---all of which marketing and advertising made essential to any car. Fuel efficiency never was *made* as important...by the automakers.

The current business model has continued to cater to the demand of the market. While that seems resonable, it's actually a poor practice. Look at other technology---this market needed to innovate similarly and drive the market forward (err no pun intended, for once).

We can't keep bailing everything out.

Do you know there was not one single bond initiative for public schools in my area in this month's election?

While government is busy bailing out business, schools are cutting back more. Who does this affect? First, the students. No new schools, which means more crowded classrooms. Also, more driving for parents because bus routes are being cut back. It also means layoffs in architecture firms, which afects all the contractors and subcontractors too.Second, it affects the future. Badly.

It's bad all over. I fear for all of us, financially. We're all going to have to make unpleasant sacrifices.

Bailing out banks and automakers won't solve that.

I just had lunch with a banker who put house buying on hold, alogn with many other things, waiting daily for a layoff notice.

Julie
Using My Words

Erin, I'm coming into this conversation a bit late, but thank you so much for providing some fresh facts, myth-busting and rational conversation.   I'm really amazed at how uninformed the public (and congress) is about the changes the industry has made in the past several years. 

The hypocrisy between the blank check for the banks being rewarded for egregious, intentional robbing of the american people and the manufacturers has been driving me crazy.  Mitch Albom wrote a great editorial on this a couple weeks ago, and I've included a few posts on my blog about a personal perspective. 

Today's grilling seemed a little bit more sane.  It will be interesting to see what happens next.

BeyondJustMom